I am a parent who has not denied the possibility of my son being autogynephilic. There are many paths to sexual deviations. However, I do not understand how girls can have RODG but boys are excluded ; even after your in depth explanation and studying the phenomenon for two years. There also seems to be a cohort of girls encouraging their boyfriends/ sexual partners into " becoming women". They love to paint their "new girlfriends" nails, do their hair and pick out clothes,go shopping with them. Many consider themselves in a lesbian relationship. The " lesbian " label is still applied even if the partner still has a penis. Many of these girls love big breasts and penises on the same body. I feel my son was encouraged greatly by such a female after many major adverse life events and not wanting to be "alone".
basically, the boys seem to fit a coherent profile that is consistent with autogynephilia. the girls don't all fit a coherent profile consistent with a pre-existing category or hypothesis.
I don't have a problem with the reality that some typically masculine, presumably heterosexual adolescent boys with no history of gender nonconformity who suddenly announce their desire to be a woman actually have AGP. I completely agree that many in the gender critical camps are demonizing these young men in a terrible way and making it even harder for them to understand their situation. Of course AGP needs to be better researched and understood. I also don't have any personal stake in the issue with boys. However, I am extremely concerned to see the same kind of rigid, it's either this or that and there can't be any other explanations, parents don't know their child and are in denial assertions that so closely mirror the narratives of the affirmation-only, there's only one to understand the gender dysphoric child camp that took over therapy and medicine and got us into this mess. It is an extraordinary claim to say that EVERY non-homosexual boy who says he wants to transition MUST be AGP, no other explanations possible, no other possible pathways to this distress. This is like saying there are multiple causes for depression and anxiety if you are female, but only two if you're male and only one if you're a straight male - and to make this type of claim with such certainty when the sudden increase in numbers and the conditions under which it is happening are so new and have no quality research to base it on. Cass's statements about the lack of research and data to be drawing hard conclusions on applies here too. Maybe we will find out one day that in fact 75, 80, 85% of straight adolescent males wanting to transition are AGP. But that still leaves a significant number of young men who need therapists and doctors able to look at their individual cases with nuance and open minds to understand why they are feeling this distress and how best to treat it. OCD, borderline personality disorder with its core feature of shifting and unstable identity, trauma, extreme depression and the desire to do anything to start cover as a new person, autistic perseveration and concrete and black and white thinking, and other complex mental health and life conditions that don't for neatly into a DSM box - boys can't experience any of those?
It is so disappointing and deeply concerning to see the same kind of rigid thinking explaining the causes gender dysphoria come to "this side" and see it presented as why we would want to come to the LGBT Coalition.
And let me make point clear: My problem is not with the AGP part of this narrative. It's with the assertion that there are ONLY two groups that explains EVERY adolescent male wanting to transition. I would also criticize a rigid two-group explanation that excluded AGP as a possibility. This kind of rigidity and forcing people into a single box is not how to provide quality of care. This kind of "only one explanation for every child" thinking is how we got into this mess to start with.
I agree there are bound to be outliers. But the majority of the “ROGD boys” fit a precise template, and most GC therapists are refusing to see it for what it is because what it is has been turned into a slur.
Thank you for responding. I appreciate you clarifying your position about outliers. I apologize in advance for my pushback coming across as aggressive, but while I don't have any skin in the debate about boys, I have a desisted female child who was literally abused and traumatized by systems and individuals who got caught in this rigid, unscientific approach to talking about and working with these kids.
My first concern is that you don't acknowledge the "outliers" in this article. You're explicitly state there is no third group, but the existence out "outliers" means that the "only two groups" system is not accurate and does not look for or provide space for these "outliers." Additionally, there is no quality data with peer review analyzing your (or anyone else's) process of finding, identifying, or interviewing ROGD boys (and that includes Joe Burgo, who I assume you disagree with?) Again, I refer to Cass and the many other systematic reviews finding only low quality research in this field. And self-directed research is easily confounded by problems such as confirmation and selection bias (among many other things).
Finally, these two points from your article:
Even for a young man who may be much closer to allo than auto on the direction spectrum (more attracted to actual women than the self as a woman), but who feels socially awkward and intimidated by girls, may lean into autogynephilic fantasies as an easier solution to meeting his sexual needs. Remember, these boys are typically shy and autistic.
Because for the boys, social media and porn did not create their autogynephilia, it’s merely another technology that enables and encourages it.
A few questions:
First, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be making the assumption that the socially awkward autistic male who is struggling with connecting to the girls he is attracted to must automatically be turning his attraction inward because he is autistic and that is how autism works? That is a poor understanding of autism.
Second, what evidence do we have that there is not a classically conditioned learned form of pseudo-AGP that is created through repeated exposure and reward for some young males?
I'll sum up my response by saying I completely agree with you that the GC way of talking about AGP is often unhelpful and even cruel and abusive toward some very confused and distressed teen boys and young men, some of whom are classically AGP and should be receiving honest, compassionate info about themselves, not vilification. But my point still stands: there is too much rigid, "there are only two groups, debate over" talk happening in response to the problems from the GC side and the data and research to be making such bold claims is not even close to being there. This is harmful. We've got to see there are many, many routes into this place for boys, even if one is more common or not getting the attention it deserves.
Thank you Puzzle Therapy. You put into words my frustration with the " only" one way of seeing/ doing things in helping/ understanding the desire of some individuals to want to become the opposite sex. You brought up many valid points. I have been told I am in denial because my son must be AGP since he is heterosexual; there is no other possible explanation. It is very frustrating to know in my heart there are multiple factors at play and he is not getting the help he needs. The path he is choosing is long and harmful.
"Even for a young man who may be much closer to allo than auto on the direction spectrum (more attracted to actual women than the self as a woman), but who feels socially awkward and intimidated by girls, may lean into autogynephilic fantasies as an easier solution to meeting his sexual needs. Remember, these boys are typically shy and autistic."
My issue is with the implication that because the boys are "shy and autistic" that there's an "easier" next step of "leaning into autogynophyllic fantasies." There is nothing inherent in autism (or shyness for that matter) that would make a boy decide that AGP fantasies are the "easier solution." It feels too close to the outdated views of autism that autistic people have no interest in others, are not interested in relationships, and are completely turned in on themselves. I admit I may have read something into Aaron's argument he wasn't implying, or he may not know why someone might hear echos of outdated (and sometimes harmful) beliefs about autistic people. I think there are traits common in autism that would make an autistic male more susceptible to believing in gender identity and transition as a solution, but these are the same traits seen in autistic females: concrete thinking, black and white thinking, rigidity in thinking, intense perseveration on an idea that is difficult for them to let go of. It's possible there is some mechanism within this new cohort of "ROGD" adolescent autistic males that makes them more likely to have AGP, but we don't have any real data on this new cohort.
Another possibility: Let me start by saying this is only my hypothesis that I am suggesting. I don't have any evidence for it, but I think it would be a good angle to research. We already know that many adolescent females can mislabel and misattribute various distresses to gender dysphoria. I wonder if it's possible that as the number of "self-aware AGPs" increases and more of them tell their stories in interviews and online forums, if it will be possible for some subset of young males to reach out and grab that label as a complete and neat answer to their distress - in other words, a smaller social contagion of believing they're AGP. For example, if an adolescent autistic male is highly distressed over the changes of his body during puberty, starts searching online for answers, and finds a supportive online group attributing a wide variety of feelings and preferences to AGP, I think it's possible for a subset of males to unintentionally retrofit their feelings and experiences to the AGP narrative, especially if they find the distress and uncertainty of knowing why they're so unhappy completely unbearable. I may be completely wrong about this, but it seems possible enough that it should be considered.
Thanks for your response! Putting aside the question of what Aaron T's intentions were (only Aaron can clarify that), I like your assessment of autism and how it fuels belief in gender identity. I've thought for some time now that the excessive literalism that autistic individuals possess is key, which I guess relates to what you say about concrete/rigid thinking. And yes, this holds true with autistic females, just like with males.
Edit: "especially if they find the distress and uncertainty of NOT knowing why they're so unhappy completely unbearable."
Sorry - you can't edit on the substack app and I'm feeling too lazy to go through the process of logging into the browser version to get the edit option.
There are very basic logical errors in this claim (and yes, I read the research you linked). First, there was only an increase in incidence of paraphilias in males with ASD but the claims are also being made about females too (in other places in your comments and post). Also, an increase in incidence of X in a population with Y does not mean that Y causes X or that all cases of X are caused by the same thing just because they all occur in population Y. I am not denying that you are describing an experience that has explanatory power for you and that there are other people who feel the same, but it doesn't speak for everyone. Making the claim "if autism causes trans in a boy, it is autogynephilia" is a claim that cannot be backed up. Better understanding of and compassion for males with AGP can be advocated for without having to force one narrative on everyone. Forcing one explanation on everyone is how we got into this situation to start with (forcing the very weak Dutch protocol on every child and teen with no consideration of the individual). The existence of autistic people who come to develop gender confusion or obsessions with gender identity beliefs through means other than AGP does not invalidate or erase the experiences of those with AGP.
>The existence of autistic people who come to develop gender confusion or obsessions with gender identity beliefs through means other than AGP does not invalidate or erase the experiences of those with AGP.
no, all the males are agp. no one wants to change their sex purely bc "obsession". even for the rogd girls, its a fixation on social justice and being "oppressed", not just "obsession". the "obsessions" narrative does not accurately portray the autistic experience imo.
"autism trans" has no logical explanation currently available, other than paraphilias for males. i have explained why the "obsession" model makes no sense.
What if I have AGP, but my own ideal version of myself (a soft butch androgynous lesbian in the mold of Alison Bechdel, perhaps a little bit more feminine) is vastly different from what I want in an ideal female partner? Is it possible for one to have a different allosexual and autosexual attraction?
Every generation brings forward boys who are straight and try to affect femininity. Usually it’s eye makeup, and I’ve had young men on staff with fascinating fingernails, long hair is an old one, skits/skorts/kilts are another - boys can’t wear feminine tops because it’s impossible. 10 years from now they will look back and say “what was I thinking”, there’s a lot of tattoo regret. Boyish AGP is an old tradition.
I think we are over-diagnosing and over-analyzing ordinary boy pubertal behavior in a new context.
The main difference is that tattoo regret is quite different from hormone regret.
I am a parent who has not denied the possibility of my son being autogynephilic. There are many paths to sexual deviations. However, I do not understand how girls can have RODG but boys are excluded ; even after your in depth explanation and studying the phenomenon for two years. There also seems to be a cohort of girls encouraging their boyfriends/ sexual partners into " becoming women". They love to paint their "new girlfriends" nails, do their hair and pick out clothes,go shopping with them. Many consider themselves in a lesbian relationship. The " lesbian " label is still applied even if the partner still has a penis. Many of these girls love big breasts and penises on the same body. I feel my son was encouraged greatly by such a female after many major adverse life events and not wanting to be "alone".
basically, the boys seem to fit a coherent profile that is consistent with autogynephilia. the girls don't all fit a coherent profile consistent with a pre-existing category or hypothesis.
I don't have a problem with the reality that some typically masculine, presumably heterosexual adolescent boys with no history of gender nonconformity who suddenly announce their desire to be a woman actually have AGP. I completely agree that many in the gender critical camps are demonizing these young men in a terrible way and making it even harder for them to understand their situation. Of course AGP needs to be better researched and understood. I also don't have any personal stake in the issue with boys. However, I am extremely concerned to see the same kind of rigid, it's either this or that and there can't be any other explanations, parents don't know their child and are in denial assertions that so closely mirror the narratives of the affirmation-only, there's only one to understand the gender dysphoric child camp that took over therapy and medicine and got us into this mess. It is an extraordinary claim to say that EVERY non-homosexual boy who says he wants to transition MUST be AGP, no other explanations possible, no other possible pathways to this distress. This is like saying there are multiple causes for depression and anxiety if you are female, but only two if you're male and only one if you're a straight male - and to make this type of claim with such certainty when the sudden increase in numbers and the conditions under which it is happening are so new and have no quality research to base it on. Cass's statements about the lack of research and data to be drawing hard conclusions on applies here too. Maybe we will find out one day that in fact 75, 80, 85% of straight adolescent males wanting to transition are AGP. But that still leaves a significant number of young men who need therapists and doctors able to look at their individual cases with nuance and open minds to understand why they are feeling this distress and how best to treat it. OCD, borderline personality disorder with its core feature of shifting and unstable identity, trauma, extreme depression and the desire to do anything to start cover as a new person, autistic perseveration and concrete and black and white thinking, and other complex mental health and life conditions that don't for neatly into a DSM box - boys can't experience any of those?
It is so disappointing and deeply concerning to see the same kind of rigid thinking explaining the causes gender dysphoria come to "this side" and see it presented as why we would want to come to the LGBT Coalition.
And let me make point clear: My problem is not with the AGP part of this narrative. It's with the assertion that there are ONLY two groups that explains EVERY adolescent male wanting to transition. I would also criticize a rigid two-group explanation that excluded AGP as a possibility. This kind of rigidity and forcing people into a single box is not how to provide quality of care. This kind of "only one explanation for every child" thinking is how we got into this mess to start with.
I agree there are bound to be outliers. But the majority of the “ROGD boys” fit a precise template, and most GC therapists are refusing to see it for what it is because what it is has been turned into a slur.
Thank you for responding. I appreciate you clarifying your position about outliers. I apologize in advance for my pushback coming across as aggressive, but while I don't have any skin in the debate about boys, I have a desisted female child who was literally abused and traumatized by systems and individuals who got caught in this rigid, unscientific approach to talking about and working with these kids.
My first concern is that you don't acknowledge the "outliers" in this article. You're explicitly state there is no third group, but the existence out "outliers" means that the "only two groups" system is not accurate and does not look for or provide space for these "outliers." Additionally, there is no quality data with peer review analyzing your (or anyone else's) process of finding, identifying, or interviewing ROGD boys (and that includes Joe Burgo, who I assume you disagree with?) Again, I refer to Cass and the many other systematic reviews finding only low quality research in this field. And self-directed research is easily confounded by problems such as confirmation and selection bias (among many other things).
Finally, these two points from your article:
Even for a young man who may be much closer to allo than auto on the direction spectrum (more attracted to actual women than the self as a woman), but who feels socially awkward and intimidated by girls, may lean into autogynephilic fantasies as an easier solution to meeting his sexual needs. Remember, these boys are typically shy and autistic.
Because for the boys, social media and porn did not create their autogynephilia, it’s merely another technology that enables and encourages it.
A few questions:
First, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be making the assumption that the socially awkward autistic male who is struggling with connecting to the girls he is attracted to must automatically be turning his attraction inward because he is autistic and that is how autism works? That is a poor understanding of autism.
Second, what evidence do we have that there is not a classically conditioned learned form of pseudo-AGP that is created through repeated exposure and reward for some young males?
I'll sum up my response by saying I completely agree with you that the GC way of talking about AGP is often unhelpful and even cruel and abusive toward some very confused and distressed teen boys and young men, some of whom are classically AGP and should be receiving honest, compassionate info about themselves, not vilification. But my point still stands: there is too much rigid, "there are only two groups, debate over" talk happening in response to the problems from the GC side and the data and research to be making such bold claims is not even close to being there. This is harmful. We've got to see there are many, many routes into this place for boys, even if one is more common or not getting the attention it deserves.
Thank you Puzzle Therapy. You put into words my frustration with the " only" one way of seeing/ doing things in helping/ understanding the desire of some individuals to want to become the opposite sex. You brought up many valid points. I have been told I am in denial because my son must be AGP since he is heterosexual; there is no other possible explanation. It is very frustrating to know in my heart there are multiple factors at play and he is not getting the help he needs. The path he is choosing is long and harmful.
I think you raise some valid points, but could you elaborate a bit on your critique of Aaron's understanding of autism?
This is the part that I'm referring to:
"Even for a young man who may be much closer to allo than auto on the direction spectrum (more attracted to actual women than the self as a woman), but who feels socially awkward and intimidated by girls, may lean into autogynephilic fantasies as an easier solution to meeting his sexual needs. Remember, these boys are typically shy and autistic."
My issue is with the implication that because the boys are "shy and autistic" that there's an "easier" next step of "leaning into autogynophyllic fantasies." There is nothing inherent in autism (or shyness for that matter) that would make a boy decide that AGP fantasies are the "easier solution." It feels too close to the outdated views of autism that autistic people have no interest in others, are not interested in relationships, and are completely turned in on themselves. I admit I may have read something into Aaron's argument he wasn't implying, or he may not know why someone might hear echos of outdated (and sometimes harmful) beliefs about autistic people. I think there are traits common in autism that would make an autistic male more susceptible to believing in gender identity and transition as a solution, but these are the same traits seen in autistic females: concrete thinking, black and white thinking, rigidity in thinking, intense perseveration on an idea that is difficult for them to let go of. It's possible there is some mechanism within this new cohort of "ROGD" adolescent autistic males that makes them more likely to have AGP, but we don't have any real data on this new cohort.
Another possibility: Let me start by saying this is only my hypothesis that I am suggesting. I don't have any evidence for it, but I think it would be a good angle to research. We already know that many adolescent females can mislabel and misattribute various distresses to gender dysphoria. I wonder if it's possible that as the number of "self-aware AGPs" increases and more of them tell their stories in interviews and online forums, if it will be possible for some subset of young males to reach out and grab that label as a complete and neat answer to their distress - in other words, a smaller social contagion of believing they're AGP. For example, if an adolescent autistic male is highly distressed over the changes of his body during puberty, starts searching online for answers, and finds a supportive online group attributing a wide variety of feelings and preferences to AGP, I think it's possible for a subset of males to unintentionally retrofit their feelings and experiences to the AGP narrative, especially if they find the distress and uncertainty of knowing why they're so unhappy completely unbearable. I may be completely wrong about this, but it seems possible enough that it should be considered.
Thanks for your response! Putting aside the question of what Aaron T's intentions were (only Aaron can clarify that), I like your assessment of autism and how it fuels belief in gender identity. I've thought for some time now that the excessive literalism that autistic individuals possess is key, which I guess relates to what you say about concrete/rigid thinking. And yes, this holds true with autistic females, just like with males.
I also share your concern about lack of data.
Edit: "especially if they find the distress and uncertainty of NOT knowing why they're so unhappy completely unbearable."
Sorry - you can't edit on the substack app and I'm feeling too lazy to go through the process of logging into the browser version to get the edit option.
the short of it is that autism is highly associated with paraphilias. if autism causes trans in a boy, it is autogynephilia.
There are very basic logical errors in this claim (and yes, I read the research you linked). First, there was only an increase in incidence of paraphilias in males with ASD but the claims are also being made about females too (in other places in your comments and post). Also, an increase in incidence of X in a population with Y does not mean that Y causes X or that all cases of X are caused by the same thing just because they all occur in population Y. I am not denying that you are describing an experience that has explanatory power for you and that there are other people who feel the same, but it doesn't speak for everyone. Making the claim "if autism causes trans in a boy, it is autogynephilia" is a claim that cannot be backed up. Better understanding of and compassion for males with AGP can be advocated for without having to force one narrative on everyone. Forcing one explanation on everyone is how we got into this situation to start with (forcing the very weak Dutch protocol on every child and teen with no consideration of the individual). The existence of autistic people who come to develop gender confusion or obsessions with gender identity beliefs through means other than AGP does not invalidate or erase the experiences of those with AGP.
>the claims are also being made about females too
i never denied social contagion in females
>The existence of autistic people who come to develop gender confusion or obsessions with gender identity beliefs through means other than AGP does not invalidate or erase the experiences of those with AGP.
no, all the males are agp. no one wants to change their sex purely bc "obsession". even for the rogd girls, its a fixation on social justice and being "oppressed", not just "obsession". the "obsessions" narrative does not accurately portray the autistic experience imo.
"autism trans" has no logical explanation currently available, other than paraphilias for males. i have explained why the "obsession" model makes no sense.
What if I have AGP, but my own ideal version of myself (a soft butch androgynous lesbian in the mold of Alison Bechdel, perhaps a little bit more feminine) is vastly different from what I want in an ideal female partner? Is it possible for one to have a different allosexual and autosexual attraction?
Every generation brings forward boys who are straight and try to affect femininity. Usually it’s eye makeup, and I’ve had young men on staff with fascinating fingernails, long hair is an old one, skits/skorts/kilts are another - boys can’t wear feminine tops because it’s impossible. 10 years from now they will look back and say “what was I thinking”, there’s a lot of tattoo regret. Boyish AGP is an old tradition.
I think we are over-diagnosing and over-analyzing ordinary boy pubertal behavior in a new context.
The main difference is that tattoo regret is quite different from hormone regret.